Someone asked me recently of my "review" of Saxon math.
I'm sorry if this sounds harsh. But the truth is, I really don't want to do a comprehensive review of it. It just goes so much against my way of teaching and thinking about math.
Saxon math presents a concept in a lesson, then has a few exercises about it, and the rest of the lesson is review of previous concepts.
The NEXT lesson usually is not on the same topic as the previous lesson. It jumps around in topics tremendously. One lesson on geometry, next on fractions, next on addition, next on large numbers. It's unbelievably disjointed. And THAT feature I find unacceptable.
How can kids get a coherent view of mathematics studying that way?
I like how professor Hung-Hsi Wu has worded it (emphases and the additional note are mine):
"But I think that what perhaps disturbs me the most about Saxon is to read through it, I myself do not get the feeling that I am reading something that when that the children use it they would even have a remotely correct impression of what mathematics is about. It is extremely good at promoting procedural accuracy {Maria's note: this means teaching procedures such as the correct motions of the long division algorithm, or what to do to find the lowest common denominator, etc.}. And what David says about building everything up in small increments, that's correct, but the great pedagogy is devoted, is used, to serve only one purpose, which is to make sure that the procedures get memorized, get used correctly. And you would get the feeling that-I think of it as a logical analogy-you can see the skeleton presented with quite a bit of clarity, but you never see any methods, your never see any flesh, nothing-no connective tissue, you only see the bare stuff.
A little bit of this is okay, but when you read through a whole volume of it really I am very, very, uneasy. There are lots of things in it that I admire, but something that is so one-sided-you think once more about yourself and you think about what happens if this thing gets adopted. There might be lots and lots of children using it. And suppose that hundreds of thousands of students are using this book and they go through four years of it. Would you be willing to face the end result? That here are hundreds of thousands of students thinking that mathematics is basically a collection of techniques.
That impression by the way is very easy and is almost obtained-you get it by looking at the topics. There is no rhyme or reason about the sequencing of the topics. For example, the things are really broken up. The report gives the examples. One of the grade levels, grade four or grade five, has exactly two sections on probability (that's right two sections). They belong together and without a doubt there is no increase in sophistication or techniques, and yet I think they are separated by 200 pages. When I do this I want to emphasize that I do not single out one or two examples. I am trying to describe through one or two examples the overall the overriding impression that I have. And when that happens, you get the feel that if my students use this, how could they not get the idea that mathematics is just a collection of techniques? If that is the case, what happens to them when they go on to middle school, and then to high school, and after that, God forbid, you might be facing them in your freshman calculus classes. And that is a frightening thought!
References: http://www.arthurhu.com/2003/11/antisax.txt
http://www.pdkintl.org/kappan/k0111jac.htm
16 comments:
During the summer between sixth and seventh grade, I read the Saxon Algebra book cover to cover one afternoon. The next day, I read the geometry book the same way. Over the next two days after that, I read the Algebra II book.
That was an appetizer compared to the curriculum I covered at school. But a good appetizer for a gifted student. I didn't gain much depth of insight, but I got used to some techniques that I was able to expand on in my more challenging math and math team classes.
Saxon math might be useful in some ways to some people, but it's certainly not a comprehensive curriculum for students who want to pursue academic or career paths that require mathematical rigor.
Can you please suggest math curriculums that you do find through ? i have two soon to be 3 6 year old boys among other children. I use shiller math but it seems to take forever. Can you recommend any supplements or other math curr that you like? thank you
well, I do like mine (Math Mammoth), I also think Singapore Math is good.
RightStart math is another possibility however I'm not sure exactly how comprehensive it is.
I am more impressed with Math Mammoth than I am with Saxon. I plan on using her guides and curriculum for the new school year for both of my girls. She puts it simply and in a way that I remember how to do it from my days in school. I understand the logic of it all.
Maria is also great at giving good advice when you start homeschooling. I just recently took my girls out of school. I have realized that my youngest daughter is now very behind in some of her Math skills. Thanks to Maria we are fast approaching getting her caught up to the sixth grade level.
A while back, I picked up third grade Saxon Math curriculum at the local Goodwill store. Comparing Saxon to Math Mammoth, I say Math Mammoth is much better for parents and students.
we haven't used any of maria's math mammoth yet, but so far i've been very impressed with mus (math-u-see). i didn't use it much with my oldest (grad '02), who used mostly saxon. my second (grad '05) used saxon until we got to algebra, then we switched to mus. my third and fourth have used saxon through 8/7, then switched to mus. one has completed alg 1, geom, and alg 2, and will do their new stewardship math next year (i'm very impressed with reading through it!). the other one used the pre-alg this year (she was my first one to use it) and we're holding steady at this point to finish out our high school math with math-u-see.
my youngest is 5 but will do 1st grade math in the fall, and we'll probably just go along in an easy manner, covering things without a specific text.
I really appreciated your assessment of the Saxon method, Maria. We have used it for pre-Algebra and were not greatly impressed. I see that you recommend your Math Mammoth program and the Singapore (We are using your Math Mammoth with great success for a younger child. Love it!) for elementary, but what would you recommend for Algebra and Geometry in Middle School? If you had to teach your child, what would you use?
I'm not quire sure myself at this point what would be the best and recommendable program for pre-algebra in middle school.
For high school level, I'd recommend Harold Jacobs texts or Foerster's texts. For geometry, also Geometry: A Guided Inquiry is good.
I need to note that I have not seen nearly every possible math program or text. I may find something else later that is as good (or better) than Foerster's and Jacobs.
My daughter has Asperger's syndrome (a high functioning form of autism) and has always had tons of difficulty with math due to her inability to understand abstract concepts. There is no other way for her to learn math than to memorize it...it will never make "sense" to her. Saxon has been able to teach her how to do the calculations, and she has progressed leaps and bounds with it! We don't do the timed fact practice, as it would take too long and timing her always stresses her out, but the rest of the program has been great. All the problems in the mixed practice have the lessons referenced, so she can always go back a review a concept if she needs to.
For someone that is only capable of learning the basics of math and is not going to go on to advanced math skills, this is a great program.
In our family we have used Saxon 2 and 5/4. While 5/4 is much less boring, they are both too time consuming and boring that I even lost interest. We went back to Singapore Math. I hear so much praise for Saxon that it is nice to hear that we are not alone in our feelings toward Saxon.
I haven't found a math program I like all the way through, but Teaching Textbooks is excellent for pre-algebra and up. The 2 guys designed it for homeschoolers and have been Harvard tutors. I do they have gone down to the 5th grade, but I don't know if the cost is worth the investment unless you will have multiple children go through the program.
So what if you get blasted! Over the years I have heard of, seen, and experienced surprise from the devotees of several "cults of homeschooling." Perhaps Saxon devotees qualify as yet another. My children have never liked Saxon, nor have I, coming from an academic background in cognitive psychology. But although Saxon is just plain boring and the explanations are ultra-tedious, I have put the kids through various runs through the tests, for the practice. Singapore is what we consiser the ultimate challenge, and by the time we're done running 5 kids through various curricula, including Singapore, I may feel like I know some math! I'm also looking forward to using your site! Val Smith
I'm not familiar with Mammoth Math (sorry, just found your site), but, in my district we just completed a comprehensive review of algebra and geometry texts. We ended up choosing a big publisher because it was most closely aligned with our state standards. However, if I were homeschooling my child, I would want to use either Singapore Math or Discovering Algebra/Geometry by Key Curriculum Press. They both get students doing real mathematics (conjecture, testing, proof), but also give them adequate practice with algorithms. I thought Saxon was horrible.
What math program would you suggest for a homeschooled child who has ADD or problems remembering math facts?
Praise God!! Everyone always looks at me like I'm a martian when I say I hated Saxon. We used it for first grade, and I spent more time deciding how to tweak it than I did using it because we were sooooo bored! I also think the price is ridiculous! We've been loving Singapore, but if we ever decided to change, I'll definitely check out Math Mammoth. Thank you for articulating the problems with Saxon so well!
Jennifer
Mellisa,
I am no expert on ADD or what kind of math program would be the best for such children.
However, in general I feel that kids with ADD and ADHD should still be taught math from a conceptual basis.
Similarly for math facts, one would teach them as structures, tying the facts in with concepts. See my articles on math facts for this.
Additionally there are lots of other ways to help cement the facts. Software and games are the standard approach. Some people toss a ball back and forth while reciting and practicing the facts. Some post large posters on the wall. Some have kids copy them on paper... all kinds of creative ideas.
You can subscribe to the Living Math Forum yahoo group and search their archives for more.
I think Saxon is a good choice for grades K-6 but the model is less than preferable for grades 7-12.
The constant review is great at lower grades, but at the higher grades, there is already review incorporated in a natural way in any traditional curriculum. For example, factoring is used from elementary algebra up through Calculus II, as are signed numbers. And Saxon's fragmenting of topics just doesn't serve higher mathematics well. I have written my own extensive review of Saxon, along with our own family's experiences at
Is Saxon Math The Best Choice?.
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